Case Forming - The right way

[kiwishooter]

Here is another article from Saubier, hopefully this will encourage a sharing of information

CASE FORMING The Right Way.

These pictures are all provide by John Delozier(JD) who has begun to do some of my case forming for me. I have formed a number of different .17 cases using the standard Double end forming die from BULLBERRY, and they all have turned out fine. I must say that they dont look as good as the ones that I have received from JD who is using the Redding or RCBS forming dies. I have found enjoyment in learning the process of case forming, but I am not sure that I could convince myself that I like doing it. I may just be bitter, because I formed over 150 .17 Jet cases last night.

I have found that it is important to anneal these cases to achieve top accuracy and ensure adequate case life. It is less important on some cases like the Mach IV, but I still choose to anneal. I have purchased a Series 2 Annealing tip from the Woodchuck Den that I use to anneal the cases once I have formed them. The phone number for the Woodchuck Den is in my Links section of the page. I have included a picture of this tool below. I place the cases in a baking pan with " of water. I anneal each case individually and nock over with the annealing tip into the water to quench. With the annealing tip came instructions to anneal each case for approximately 15 seconds. I have had a little better luck with close to 20 seconds, but the key is to not over heat the brass. I have found that the annealing tip makes this task rather easy, and now I dont regret annealing like I used to. When annealing the cases, you want to hold the flames at the area that is to be stretched during the fireforming and then upwards to the neck. You do not want to heat the brass until it gets red, you just want to heat until the case begins to discolor to a blue/green color a little. Overheating can ruin the brass.



Another thing to remember when loading cases for the first time. Load up a few at a conservative to moderate level and shoot. You can then determine if the load will form the cases to your satisfaction before you load them all. If you load them too hot, you may destroy some of the cases by splitting the necks. For the .17s, I like to use a 25 grain bullet for fireforming loads. The heavier weight seems to form the cases a little better. I have had some incredible groups while fireforming, so dont feel like you are just wasting bullets. Load up a bunch of fireforming loads, sight in your gun and go hunting or shooting. My .17 Hebee averaged .5" while fireforming. The velocity was a little lower than standard loads at 3250 fps with the fireforming load (25 grain bullets). There are pictures of my .17 Hebee case forming steps in the Hebee article on my page, so I have not included them here. I will add a photo of the case forming on the .17 Jet when I have a chance.

Check out the pictures below to see what the case forming involves. I have also attached a price list from JD and contact information if you would like for him to form some cases for you.


Shown above is a picture of the transformation of .218 Bee case to a formed .17 Ackley Bee case that has been fireformed.


Here are the .17 Ackley hornet case forming steps. Here the transformation is showing the results from each forming step. The fireformed case is not shown, but will be a straight wall case with sharp shoulder angle.


The Mach IV case doesn’t have to transform nearly as much as the previous cases mentioned. The forming steps make the case look like the real thing even before fireforming in the chamber. The shoulder angle is not changed and the location of the shoulder is preserved so that the case looks great from the start. same number of steps are required to form these cases.

I removed the remaining text from the article due to being pricing for various formed cases and the contact details for the person doing the supply of the formed cases, I'm sure if they are still forming cases the price may be a bit higher now.


When I joined Saubier many years ago there were a number of references to various forming dies and processes step by step to form various cases, perhaps some will join in and post pics of their forming die and perhaps a few posts on the steps needed to form various small caliber cases ie 20 Vartarg from 223
Is anyone using hydro form to form cases?

 

[jtv3062]

I form for 17 Remington fireball and 20 Vartarg.
The fireball having a longer case than the 221, the 17 case comes out too short forming from 221.
But I now form from 5.56 and with that I'm able to make the case longer to fit my chamber better. I wish I started from 5.56 than having spent a bunch of $ on Lapua 221 Remington brass.

 

[kiwishooter]

A die I use for case forming is the one in the pic below, I believe it was designed by Skip Otto, but I bought mine from Butch Lambert. Since buying it I've added a few additional bushes. I also cut down a 22/250 die to reform 220 Russian brass to the short PPC's, 22 Waldog, 22-.100 and also the 20 pup.
When I first found Saubier people were talking about using a Lee die body as a case forming die, since I already had the Skip Otto type die I didn't query the specifics of that, perhaps someone may know what Lee die body they were using and even a photo of it would be helpful for some maybe.

 

[Kenbro]

I form for 17 Remington fireball and 20 Vartarg.
The fireball having a longer case than the 221, the 17 case comes out too short forming from 221.
But I now form from 5.56 and with that I'm able to make the case longer to fit my chamber better. I wish I started from 5.56 than having spent a bunch of $ on Lapua 221 Remington brass.

When I formed 221 Fb cases from 223 brass I found that if I used Hornady brass, outside neck turning or inside reaming wasn’t necessary.
Using any other brand of brass and formed cases needed work on the necks before they would chamber with a bullet in situ.
Ken.

 

[ray h]

A die I use for case forming is the one in the pic below, I believe it was designed by Skip Otto, but I bought mine from Butch Lambert. Since buying it I've added a few additional bushes. I also cut down a 22/250 die to reform 220 Russian brass to the short PPC's, 22 Waldog, 22-.100 and also the 20 pup.
When I first found Saubier people were talking about using a Lee die body as a case forming die, since I already had the Skip Otto type die I didn't query the specifics of that, perhaps someone may know what Lee die body they were using and even a photo of it would be helpful for some maybe.

View attachment 229

Kiwi, in my pile of junk, I also have Skip's bushing set. Butch bought out the dies from Skip's wife and sold them. I think at one time he was going to make more. I've always wondered why Skip put a radius shoulder in the bushing. Any opinions? I prefer a straight shoulder. That 2 part die body, at the top , is the best part of the whole set, that idea opened up a bunch of ideas.. All my Neil Jones bushing fit into that die body as if made for them. I also took a Hornady sliding seater, they were cheap when they first came out, grounded off the mouth to remove the groove where the wire clip went. Counter bored the mouth and soft soldered a .100 ring to act as bushing stop when extracting the case from the die. The inside of the Hornady die is .625 so Skip's and Jones bushing fit. To handle longer cases I found some thin wall S.S. tubing that was .625 OD and made 1/2", 3/4" and 1" spacers. These can be used by them self or stacked depending on length of case. the top of the Hornady die was shorten a little and tapped for a .625 bolt I had to act as a cap. This die has been very helpful. I have a bag of scrap range pickups that are very clean. I use these to set up dies but mainly to make sample cases of "what if" ideas. I like to handle a case vs a drawing. Plus you get a idea of case volumes for planning. Kiwi I didn't want to step on your post, just showing what also can be done with Skip's great idea. I don't recall the Lee Body die thing, hope someone does.

 

[kiwishooter]

Ray thanks for that information, it has given me a few ideas. Have you got a pic of the hornady die and the accessories you made for it.
What are the Neil Jones bushings, are they from a sizing die or forming die?

I don’t know why Skip used a radius instead of a straight shoulder, but I have made some with straight shoulders and a radius where the shoulder and neck meet.
I think Skip may have made the die when there was a shortage of 220 Russian and people were shortening the 308 case with the small primer pocket and the 30 American brass.

Like you I use a lot of range pickups to look at some what if’s or get an idea of what something I’ve read about looks like.

Kiwi

 

[ray h]

Ray thanks for that information, it has given me a few ideas. Have you got a pic of the hornady die and the accessories you made for it.
What are the Neil Jones bushings, are they from a sizing die or forming die?

I don’t know why Skip used a radius instead of a straight shoulder, but I have made some with straight shoulders and a radius where the shoulder and neck meet.
I think Skip may have made the die when there was a shortage of 220 Russian and people were shortening the 308 case with the small primer pocket and the 30 American brass.

Like you I use a lot of range pickups to look at some what if’s or get an idea of what something I’ve read about looks like.

Kiwi

I don't have photo's. I don't have a smart phone, just a cheap flip phone. Did I say I hate phones??? LOL The Neil Jones bushing is different from any other. The bottom has a shoulder dia straight wall section that's probably 1/16" long. That goes into the shoulder angle, for forming Neil always recommend the 30* shoulder. That goes into the neck diameter needed. That straight portion at the bottom helps ( but doesn't cure it so be careful) control the swelling of the shoulder diameter when swaging down the neck. That straight portion also restricts what cases you can use. My most used set I got for the 17 Jav Imp. I spec'd the reamer with min. case taper. I've used those bushing for everything from 17 Duster, 17-204 down to the 17 Squirrel and everything in between. Also the cases don't have to be Imp to use the Imp bushings. I also got a set for the 17 PPC Imp when I started playing with that case. The last I bought were around 18.00 ea and a set of 8 bushing makes a cheap set of forming dies. Particularly considering I've done a bunch of cases from 22, 20, 19 and 17 caliber of different length cases. The 8 bushing won't give you exactly the neck OD you need for caliber, I just go down to next step and then expand the neck ID up with K&M neck expanders. With the bushing die body you got with your Skip O set and my modified Hornady seater, I can fit everything in a RCBS die box. Nice and compact. I keep my bushings in a couple old cigar tubes which helps sorting them out during use. It's great for making "what if's". I'll expand the cases to almost straight walled and then neck down. They'll be very close to what a fire formed case what look like. I can get a very close case volume measurement. Hope this helps

 

[kiwishooter]

Thanks Ray, your explanation does help and has me thinking about making a few more bushings and I'm also contemplating a new die body to hold the bushings with a way to gain easier repeatability.
Are the Neil Jones bushings hardened?

 

[ray h]

Thanks Ray, your explanation does help and has me thinking about making a few more bushings and I'm also contemplating a new die body to hold the bushings with a way to gain easier repeatability.
Are the Neil Jones bushings hardened?

Yes Neil's bushing are harden. My bushings have done many thousands of cases. Many years ago I was talking to JLC about bushing, he recommended A-2 instead of O-1 or W-1. I "think" he said it was easier to clean up after hardening and drawing. I never followed thru with the project to know for sure.

 

[kiwishooter]

Yes Neil's bushing are harden. My bushings have done many thousands of cases. Many years ago I was talking to JLC about bushing, he recommended A-2 instead of O-1 or W-1. I "think" he said it was easier to clean up after hardening and drawing. I never followed thru with the project to know for sure.

Ray what did you make bushes from?

 

[ray h]

Ray what did you make bushes from?

Kiwi I wasn't going to make a Jones bushing (they're too cheap to buy and no work) but I've had a wild a?x idea for a modular sizing die that's been brewing for 40 years. My only lathe is a little 6 x 18 Atlas which has been sitting idle for a long time. That was what I was talking to JLC about.

 

[rickiesrevenge]

I have a set like that from Butch. Made more bushings from A2 steel. Worked good. Made a copy for a buddy. Been meaning to make a plate like Blaine Eddy used to make. Need to try it as some friends love it

 

[ray h]

I have a set like that from Butch. Made more bushings from A2 steel. Worked good. Made a copy for a buddy. Been meaning to make a plate like Blaine Eddy used to make. Need to try it as some friends love it

I had a plate from Blaine along with the special shell holders. I couldn't get it to do what I needed. I could only reduce the neck dia but no way could I get it to move the shoulder back correctly. Mine tore the devil out of the brass also. I tried polishing it but still no joy. I also believe it work harden the brass alot but annealing would fix that. I put it on Saubier . I ask the new owner to make a donation to Jim for the plate but Jim didn't remember getting it. They were probably disappointed too.

 

[kiwishooter]

I found my Neil Jones catalogue, it's from approx the early/mid 90's, the reason I deduce that is he was selling the best of Precision Shooting vol one & vol two they were dated 1982 & 1986, Boyd Mace's "The Accurate Varmint Rifle" and the 1992 Precision Shooting Annuals.

In the catalogue it shows a "Special Forming Die" which is micrometer adjustable, he says the die is suitable for your basic cartridge and a series of forming bushes. The number of bushings required depends on if you are moving the shoulder back or not and he gives an example .308W reduced to 22 cal x 1 1/2 long requires 6 bushings. The forming bushes are style #6.

The forming die was $65 and style #6 bushings were $10 each.
An interesting bit of information

 

[ray h]

I found my Neil Jones catalogue, it's from approx the early/mid 90's, the reason I deduce that is he was selling the best of Precision Shooting vol one & vol two they were dated 1982 & 1986, Boyd Mace's "The Accurate Varmint Rifle" and the 1992 Precision Shooting Annuals.

In the catalogue it shows a "Special Forming Die" which is micrometer adjustable, he says the die is suitable for your basic cartridge and a series of forming bushes. The number of bushings required depends on if you are moving the shoulder back or not and he gives an example .308W reduced to 22 cal x 1 1/2 long requires 6 bushings. The forming bushes are style #6.

The forming die was $65 and style #6 bushings were $10 each.
An interesting bit of information

They're a tad more today. But considering what Redding charges and what Neil's dies can do with the forming bushing, Neils are still is good value.

 

[MarinePMI]

I had a plate from Blaine along with the special shell holders. I couldn't get it to do what I needed. I could only reduce the neck dia but no way could I get it to move the shoulder back correctly. Mine tore the devil out of the brass also. I tried polishing it but still no joy. I also believe it work harden the brass alot but annealing would fix that. I put it on Saubier . I ask the new owner to make a donation to Jim for the plate but Jim didn't remember getting it. They were probably disappointed too.

Whatever happened to Blaine?

 

[ray h]

Whatever happened to Blaine?

Blaine died. Not exactly sure how so won't say.

 

[foxhunter]

it was quick with blaine, don't remember why either.